It’s even worse if your native language has genders for things, but the one you’re learning has different genders for the same things.

End-syllables help a long way:

For example the often cited neutral: girl/Mädchen is a diminutive. So everything with -chen or -lein becomes neutral and therefore: das.

(Brötchen, Männlein, Häuschen, Fräulein)

https://mein-deutschbuch.de/genusbestimmung.html#nachsilben

As a bonus: in plural everything is “die” so just formulate everything in plural and you are always right.

@figaro@lemdro.id
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The problem though is when you get into figuring out if it is in the nominative, accusative, dative, or genitive case.

Der Hund can easily be turned into den Hund, dem Hund, or des Hundes if you aren’t careful.

And for the love of God, don’t ask me anything about subjunctive case 😮‍💨

Me in my mandarin class not having to conjugate, add pronouns, use words like the and to, and not having words more than 4 syllables. But having to learn 10,000 + characters

@vsh@lemm.ee
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What is a “normal person”? Most people on the planet don’t communicate in English.

@vsh@lemm.ee
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I’m not saying they’re fancy, just that there are more people on the planet that can’t speak English than people who can.

Also, most people on the planet speak multiple languages. There are even less people on the world that only speak a single language than there are English speakers. So, if anything, speaking just a single language, even if it’s English, is the abnormal thing.

Lastly, it’s not about “feeling successful”, as you put it, but about being able to communicate with more people and being able to enjoy more things.

@vsh@lemm.ee
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@Blackmist@feddit.uk
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If you get the wrong one just accuse the examiner of being transphobic.

@graphito@sopuli.xyz
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please no baiting trans folk

BuckFigotstheThird
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What a transphobic thing to say.

@graphito@sopuli.xyz
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Don’t bite the bait pls, reporting in this case is best course of action. Thanks

Man… This post going over lots of heads.

TheLurker
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Wow, you must be a joy to spend time with. 🙄

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Sorry you’re being downvoted, I think you’re entirely correct. I hope the other people just don’t realize how jokes that are relativising transphobic experiences like that are downplaying the actual issues trans people are facing.

@Yawnder@lemmy.zip
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that would be true in a world without bigotry.

I wish we would live in a world where we could just crack jokes involving trans people like we do with everything else.

We can, but we have to work for it. When any group is no longer being systemically discriminated and have equal rights, then they’re also valid comedy targets.

Like with racist jokes. They’re fine in very confined groups where everyone agrees that the absurdity of the premise is part of the joke and where nobody will be made to feel unsafe by it. But to a wider audience where people might misunderstand where the joke came from, in what spirit it was told in, it’s nok OK. Not only can it make people from the group being targeted feel unsafe, but it’ll also embolden actual racists who’ll mistake the joke as support of their beliefs.

It’s a trust thing I guess. As soon as trans people can see someone crack a joke about them online and rest assured in the fact that the person telling that joke isn’t voting for or otherwise enabling people who wants to take away their rights or straight up hurt them, then it’ll be fine.

This protection, however, should not apply to people who make it their business to hurt or oppress other people, which is why it’s always open season on nazis.

My thoughts exactly.

itl be definitely be nice when lgbtq doesn’t need to be a social movement, or a political opinion, just a normal thing in life.

BuckFigotstheThird
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But nobody is downplaying it? Yes Trans people face a lot of issues and they really need to be supported in many ways, but I don’t think this joke insinuates any of that.

I do think that comparing a non native speaker using the wrong article with trans people having to fear for their lives sometimes is downplaying it. I don’t think that was the intent with the original comment, which is why I also don’t appreciate the other person’s snappy response. But I do believe those kinds of jokes can subconsciously make people believe things aren’t as bad as they actually are.

TheLurker
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First of all, pretty much anything is political.

Second, I’m not the one to pull transphobia into the context. The joke did that on its own.

Third, I’m looking to have a civil discussion, you’re the one exaggerating things and starting drama by throwing profanities around and accusing me of virtue signalling.

TheLurker
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Oh grow the fuck up would you and quit the offended on behalf of others shtick.

OPs post was not transphobic in the slightest. You’re just a shit head trying to manufacture drama.

You are not looking for civil discussion so don’t try and sell me that pile of horseshit either. You are trying to create drama and are acting like a cliche virtual signalling douchebag.

Doesn’t French have ‘la’ and ‘le’ as well?

ChaoticNeutralCzech
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Yes, that’s the point. You need to memorize which words go with la and which with le. Or der/die/das for German. Or no articles for Slavic languages but the declination and other words in the sentence (selection of pronouns, forms of adjectives and sometimes verbs) depend on the gender.

If I remember correctly from my German class in highschool, the rule of thumb was if it’s an inanimate object use the feminine Die. That was in the mid 90s and I haven’t spoken German since, so that with a grain of salt.

ChaoticNeutralCzech
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The more accurate rules of thumb are based on word endings. -e or -in suggest it’s feminine, -er or -or that it’s masculine, and -chen or -ling that it’s neutral. Such hints only work for about 30 % of words but some are close to 100% accurate.

genders of words don’t usually change over time, even if spelling does.

also who told you that rule of thumb? being german, I don’t think it’s accurate at all.

Johanno
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It’s machina lavatoria in latin and obviously femal for your grammar.

This easy trick to learn French, learn Latin first :-) !

Thanks, it flew miles over my head.

Female in Russian, because the word machine/машина ends with A, and so any machine, from tattoo gun to steam engine is female gendered. I always thought French and German worked in somewhat similar manner?

The general rule of thumb in French is the word is feminine if it ends with “-le” like “la table”, the table is feminine with it the article “la” to denote feminine. But this is not always the case. For example, house in French is “la maison” which doesn’t end in “-le”.

As a french I never heard about this, and I can think of way more words contradicting it than confirming it. I wouldn’t use it.

I am sorta learning French on Duolingo (and took 2 years in high school).

Articles like this one are really helpful, but also show the difficulty in learning the gender of nouns: How to easily guess the gender of French nouns with 80% accuracy

lorez
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In Italian there is il tavolo, male, and la tavola, female. The latter can also be used to refer to a sheet of, usually, wood.

It works like that in French until you use a different word for the machine.

“Mon ordinateur est une bonne machine”. In a single sentence my computer was described with words both male and female.

It’s just vocabulary and grammar, not the deep essence or identity of things or people.

it is in German too.

It is die Waschmaschine. and a Steam Engine ist die Dampfmaschine. And it is a very straight foreard naming convention. Just add what kind of machine it is to the front of the noun.

I didn’t learn of any rhyme or reason to it in German when I took classes on it. In fact, in a few cases, the gender changes the meaning of the word. Der See und die See, for example. One means lake and the other means sea/ocean.

@sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf
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OMG, I’ve been doing my Duolingo lessons and never realised that they had different meanings, I just thought Germans used one word for all bodies of water 😭

Karyoplasma
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“Die See” denotes an ocean, “der See” denotes a lake. You will more often hear “das Meer” instead of “die See” tho.

That’s a rather rare occurence. Most often, only the grammar will be incorrect if you use the wrong article.

There’s more shenanigans with “umfahren” and “umfahren”, where Intonation matters. One means “drive around”, the other “run over”.

Also one is a strong and one is a weak verb, meaning that in certain cases, one will be split apart:

Ich umfahre jemanden: I drive around someone.

Ich fahre jemanden um: I run someone over.

Spanish, Italian and Portuguese do, i believe… French has some rather… Unusual conventions i think, not matching the rest

In French “machine” is feminine like in the other languages.

i don’t recall there being any rhyme or reason to gender in german, but it’s been many years since i studied. i do remember that the gender of any word like ____-machine would be whatever the gender is for machine.

The only actual rule I’m aware of is diminutives (i.e. words ending in -chen or -lein) always being neuter (das). This is also the reason why it’s das Mädchen (girl) and das Fräulein.

The rest is arbitrary, and sometimes there’s even regional variations.

Also a neverending discussion around some “newer” words or brands such as Ketchup, Nutella, etc.

There’s some tendencies, but a ton of exceptions. I wouldn’t call It strict rules.

Native German speaker here, can confirm yes, there are some patterns but mostly the genders are pretty random; but a Waschmaschine is feminine because a Maschine is feminine, yes

thank you for confirmation!

How do gendered languages handle neologisms?

(this is a very difficult question to search btw)

GTG3000
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In slav languages, you just go with how the neologism sounds. “Computer” ends in hard r, so it’s masculine, for example.

Every once in a while there’s going to be shit like with “coffee” though. It sounds neutral-gendered and is officially neutral-gendered, but there’s been a big period when people believed it should be masculine because of the source language or some shit. Still a lot of people arguing about it.

Native German speaker here but I also speak Spanish, Portuguese, French and Swedish. Each of these languages handles them differently so I am thinking there’s not a general answer here.

It also can depend within each language on some context. For example in German many neologisms are automatically neuter (das) unless they happen to resemble some common pattern. For example a lot of German words that end with an -e are feminine and sometimes that is applied to neologisms too.

war
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At least for romance languages, there is a rhyme and reason for the gender each noun gets, so neologisms and borrowed words tend to follow the same logic.

For word morphology, as an example, in Portuguese nouns ending in a are almost always female, so new words that end with a are very likely to be female.

There are semantic rules too, for example brands and companies are typically (I want to say always but there’s probably edge cases) female, so even though Netflix and Amazon didn’t exist before they’re still female.

That’s… Curious. In Spanish both Netflix and Amazon are male.

@Vespair@lemm.ee
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there is a rhyme and reason for the gender each noun gets

There is? I only took high school level French, so I’m very ignorant on the topic and happy to admit so, but any time I asked that about that very idea all I ever got in response was “that’s just how it is!”, so I would love to learn if you’re willing to elaborate.

And I don’t think “it ends in A” is solid enough foundation to call it “rhyme and reason”

Yes, there is a rhyme and reason, but because that requires actually delving into linguistics studying (plus etymology for all those edge cases that got carried over from Latin and other languages), most people don’t get too deep into it apart from shallow rules (eg: if word starts/ends in X then it’s male/female).

Not even natives of gendered languages usually bother learning the nitty gritty rules, they just pick it up as they go, that’s how all of us learn our languages.

On a practical level, it’s also much easier to teach a 6 year old in elementary that something is male/female just because, and to remember that, than to go into each and every individual case (morphology, syntax, semantics, etc.), which themselves typically have edge cases due to history and whatnot. Especially because that child will naturally pick it up as they absorb the language around them so it really doesn’t matter much.

And then there’s just those cases where we actually don’t know because the etymology got lost. Yeah, that’s fun.

In school I was never taught why something is male/female yet I can always distinguish them naturally in my. day to day because that’s how I’ve always lived. That’s just one of the amazing things of human language.

If you ask a native of a gendered language why they think X word should be male instead of female they’ll probably just tell you it sounds wrong otherwise, and that’s literally the end of it for most of us. We don’t think about it, we just intuitively know it sounds right or wrong. I’m sure that’s frustrating to hear for a foreigner trying to learn, but you can’t teach what you don’t know. In the end, other than very broad rules, the best way typically is to just start memorizing it one by one.

Also, “ends in A” is definitely rhyme or reason in Portuguese, that’s actually a rule. Although to be more specific it’s a tonic A, but even that has an exception if it’s a nasal Ã, but I didn’t want to get into phonology too, I just wanted to give a simple example.

I speak French and it probably doesn’t help but it just sounds wrong when misgendered except for words that begin with a vowel syllable for some reason. Even we, struggle with those. E.g. avion, hélicoptère, école. We also use the l’ for those words instead of le/la but it becomes harder when we’re have to choose un/une. Maybe that’s a hint to what’s happening. Any language expert can chime in?

Sometimes it changes. For example, Covid in French, everyone was using “le covid” (i guess cos it’s a virus, and virus is a masculin word), but then I believe the French academy weighed in that it should be “la covid” because it’s not the virus but the disease (la maladie) we’re talking about. Anyway. Yeah other than the official sources, many of us peasants all still say Le covid because by the time they weighed in we were all saying Le and so now saying La sounds weird.

Trick question, washing machines come in many different genders:

@lugal@sopuli.xyz
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Only the first two are genders. The others are psychological illnesses

Edit: /s

found the transphobe

Sorry if my intent wasn’t clear but I wanted to make fun of the transphobic meme

I don’t think that saying there are more than two genders is transphobic… saying the others are psychological illnesses, however…

@lugal@sopuli.xyz
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I was making fun of the concept that there are only 2 genders by applying it to the washing information but I see that this wasn’t obvious

I thought pans came in many different genders

Bi only in two.

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This one is funny actually! You can say une machine à laver, or un lave linge. :D

Jvrava9
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Never in my life did I hear the term lave linge

Really? I’ve seen it at least twice in the last minute.

Jvrava9
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Me too, but I never heard it.

hang on I’m going to shout it pretty loud

Jvrava9
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Didn’t hear it lol

https://youtu.be/iwIEpEFoKVE now you even have 10 tips for using one!